From: Think Tank Subject: Think Tank Vol.0003 11/09/1999 Think.tank@tesco.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS' INDEX 1: 1/200 scale 2: Russian Armoured Colours World War I 3: Sherman IIc Firefly 4: El Alamein Colours 5: Airfix SA-2 w/transporter 6: Fireflies and Dragon Wagons 7: Some Thoughts on Finishing 8: Airfix SA-2 9: FV 432 recovery conversion - information wanted -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: AFV Books 2: Forthcomimg shows -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Bradford Chaucer [BChaucer@ix.netcom.com] Subject: 1/200 scale >I would like to make contact with other enthusiasts who build or collect >AFVs and figures in 1/200 scale. > >For the benefit of readers unfamiliar with 1/200 scale, the first AFV and >vehicle ranges were done by Wiking in Germany and Pilot in Denmark in the >mid-1930's. The Wikings became the standard training and You may be the answer to a search I've been on. I need several Am. Civ. War field pieces in 1/192 scale. 1/200 would be fine. Ideally I would like to find limber mounted Dahlgrens, Brookes and Gatlings . I'd settle for the spoked wheels and build the rest if I have to. Can anyone help?? Regards, Bradford Chaucer BChaucer@ix.netcom.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: nbalmer@netcomuk.co.uk Subject: Russian Armoured Colours World War I First World War Russian colours have been one of my interests for sometime. I have been building a number of Russian Armoured cars of the period and would like to be able to paint them correctly. Over recent years I have collected a number of Russian magazines with articles on the subject, the following is a precis of my information to date. The Russian Artillery was painted an apple green as early as the Napoleonic Wars, and this colour seems to have remained in service into World War I. It is similar to the green colour used on modern Serbian tanks when faded. I have approached a number of Russian sources to try to get information on the colours of Russian armoured cars, and they all disagree with each other. As far as I am aware no originally painted cars survive, although several World War I vintage cars are preserved. These all however served into the 1920's when the paint schemes changed rapidly, almost from year to year. In 1997 a magazine in Russian was published, I think it is called "Bronekollektsiya" (Armour Collection) on the Austin by M.B. Baryatinsky and M.W. Kolomiyetz. It has modern coloured illustrations of Austins in a faded greeny grey colour. All photographs for the 1914 to 1917 period show a single monotone. In some photos some adjacent cars are darker than others, but this might be due to fading with service of colours. I believe that the cars were light green. Cars produced abroad and used in Russia may well have been used in there original delivery colours. The Lanchester armoured cars used by Locker Lampsons Royal Naval Air Squadrons in Russia and Rumania were painted "a greenish brown" not grey, as is so often portrayed on RNAS models. This information comes from a contemporary account by a unit member, and I think describes a dark earth type colour. As a child I used to have access to a model of a World War I tank made by Chinese mechanics who had serviced British Tanks in 1918, and who had presented the model made in brass and painted to their officer, who was subsequently my neighbour. This tank was a dark earth colour. In the last few months a book (the title starts "Tank.......", I am afraid my Russian then runs out!) which is Number 14 in the Armada series, in Russian with a few English subtitles has become available from Barbarrosa Books and Pol Models with very good modern illustrations of Russia tanks. These illustrations again show a light green colour overall. Is this actually correct for newly delivered tanks, which came directly from British service? Or does the green date from subsequent Russia overhauls. I hope somebody may know. Several original tanks survive in Russia, I hope one day somebody will be able to get some paint chips. Photo 58 of a Tank Mark B shows a monotone coloured tank at Arkhangelsk in 1919. Following its capture it was repainted in 1920 in a two tone camouflage, as shown on photo 59. Other Russian sources show Austin Putilov cars in 1920 in grey paint. The grey may have been an undercoat colour, most trains of this period were initially painted grey during manufacture, before receiving their final livery. By 1922 these cars were sporting two tone splotchy colours. Possibly sand and green. I hope this is a help, if you get better information I shall be most interested. Nick Balmer, 5-9-99 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Craig Brown [cprr@mvp.net] Subject: Sherman IIc Firefly Referring to "Sherman" by Hunnicutt, he talks about "Firefly Ic and Vc with pictures of both but no Sherman IIc. However he does talk about and have pictures of the "Achilles" IIc tank destroyer armed with the 17 pdr gun. Could this be what Ian Hanratty is referring to? The pictures are on pages 374 and 375 in the Hunnicutt book. Craig Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Cooper, Mike [Mike.Cooper@reading.gov.uk] Subject: El alamein Colours dEAR aLL Further to the enquiry on Caunter colours at El Alamein... I've had a check and a think and two cases occur to me a. If the vehicles are in Caunter they aren't at El Alamein b. The vehicles listed - Matildas for example - probably weren't there in numbers Therefore the footage almost certainly isn't of El Alamein. So what are we left with? Caunter only lasted officially until early 1941 when it was replaced with one colour on Light Stone/Portland Stone. At first - on Honeys and some A9/10/13s and at least one M13/40 a pseudo Caunter on straight lined patches in dark over Portland Stone appeared. This in turn was replaced by plain Light Stone. Just before El Alamein this was in turn replaced with instructions to re-paint in Standard Camouflage Colour 11B (Pink) and SCC7 (Dark Olive Green). Repainting was only progressive, as SCC11b was scarce at first. So at El Alamein you could have seen Vehicles in plain Light Stone Vehicles with one colour - often Slate - over Light stone Vehicles in Light Stone with a pattern as per October 42 of either Dark Green, Black or SCC1a Very Dark Brown Vehicles in plain Pink Vehicles in the pukka October 42 scheme of Dark Green/Black/Brown and Pink. The only Matilda present were some CS in Valentine regiments and the Scorpions. Mike Starmer has copies of the official orders and I can supply his matches to Humbrol for the colours involved Mike Cooper, EU Specialist Reading Reference Library Abbey Square Reading RG1 3BQ Tel: 0118 901 5955/56 Fax: 0118 9015954/5959 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: John Harris [john@ukmilmod.force9.co.uk] Subject: Airfix SA-2 w/transporter Hello all, I have a recollection that the "Airfix" SA-2 w/transporter was going to be re-issued, but on inspection the moulds had either been damaged or deteriorated in storage and it was impossible to re-issue the kit. I think it was Mat Irvine (Scale Models International) that gave the sad news. Hope this helps John Harris http://www.ukmilmod.force9.co.uk If it is any consolation (it probably isn't), the Airfix kit was iffy in a few areas, particularly the wheels, and it might be a better starting point to us one of the Russian kits for the Zil which is now available. I bought a couple of SA-2 kits some time ago (sent someone to Italy for one of them!) to convert to the GS truck but the Russian kits do make the task a bit easier. Listmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John Harris [john@ukmilmod.force9.co.uk] Subject: Fireflies and Dragon Wagons Hello All, Regarding Phil's query about the British 'Dragon Wagon', I recall reading an account of driving the vehicle in one of Maurice H. Sanders' excellent books, these mostly deal with timber and haulage. Other tales in his books cover the Bedford 'copy' of the Sd.Kfz.7 three quarter track, which was used for logging after the war. The Warehouse Publications book "Tugs of War" has a picture of the FVRDE modified Dragon Wagon, equipped with a ballast body and 21.00 x 24 tyres! The bodywork is unmodified and carries the number "FVPE 826", not 100% certain about the last figure, there's a bloke standing in the way. It was known as "Pacific TR1". Hope this helps John Harris http://www.ukmilmod.force9.co.uk I suspect that it is the same photo which appeared in Mil Mod a few years back, in an article by Les Freathy and Geoff Lacey (p428, July 1989). Listmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Kelvin Mok [klmok@home.com] Subject: Some Thoughts on Finishing The current experts' practice is doing detailed research to finish a model accurately and then weathering it with mud, dents and other service damage. The result of it is that all those carefully added details are totally obscured. This had always given me a fuzzy uncomfortable feeling of "What's the point. What does it do for the great mass of unwashed modellers like myself?" Not too long ago another writer stated his criterion for the way he finishes his models, something like he would finish his models with accurate and crisp details and factory fresh paint schemes if he wanted to do a "Technical Drawing" type representation of the original machine. No real machine would have ever looked like that but it would provide good information on the technical and design details as in a 3-D model. That writer made a very clear point on what to look for. Perhaps this should form one class of modelling. An engineering and technically accurate model without confusing it with the inconsistencies accumulated by equipment in service. Engineering accuracy is an unbiased way of judging a model. A separate class would be to construct models as they would be in active service with all the weathering, service damage and non-regulation accessories. The model could then be built right out of the box, with minimum modifications only to parts where inaccuracies would be noticeable. The finished model should be posed as if the observer is looking at the real thing from the foxhole or a bunker. Then there wouldn't be any great effort spent on counting how many bolt heads there were or whether the main gun is 2mm too short. The first thought that occurs to the observer then is "Is that friend or enemy and will it blast me out of this world?" I think most of us armchair warriors are quite capable of spotting in such a situation, the data that matter and the inconsistencies without being distracted by engineering nit picking. The overall scene must "look right." Kelvin Mok (klmok@home.com) Home: (780) 463-4099 | Home FAX: (780) 430-7120 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Bill Scriven [bill.scriven@which.net] Subject: Re. Doug Baure's request about the Airfix SA-2 kit, I can’t confirm whether it is being re-released, but what I can say is that, like all Airfix small scale military vehicles, it was originally produced as a 1:76 scale kit. I assume that the kits have all been re-classified as 1:72 for marketing reasons, but anyone who buys them expecting to get a 1:72 scale kit will be disappointed. Of course, you could always switch to building in a proper scale! Bill Scriven -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Bill Scriven [bill.scriven@which.net] Subject: FV 432 recovery conversion - information wanted Does anyone have any pictures of the winch equipped recovery conversion of the FV432 in service, or know where any might be found? I'm particularly interested in shots that show how the earth spade was attached and how it was stowed when it wasn't being used. The only pictures that I’ve seen (in Chamberlain and Ellis’s Modern British Tanks and Fighting Equipment and Brian Baxter's Breakdown) appear to be of prototype or pre-production conversions. I know the conversion kit was not widely used, but I understand that at least recovery 432 was used on Salisbury Plain, and on that particular vehicle the earth spade was carried on the vehicle front. I'd also be interested in any information about their deployment. Bill Scriven I can recall one photograph, in Simon Dunstan's book 'Scorpion' in the Tanks Illustrated series published by Arms & Armour. Page 49 has a nice rear view showing the smaller rear door open and the winch housing and spade, although it is captioned as a Samson (hence it is in the CVRT book…). Such mistakes are rare in Simon's books, which can usually be taken as authoritative, as he tends to engage in pretty serious research. Listmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Derek Frost [dfrost@v-wave.com] Subject: AFV Books Please be aware that I have have an online military books catalog and am trying to specialise in AFV books, for any subscriber who is interested, please see:- http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/4820/ Derek Frost -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Listmaster Subject: Forthcoming shows While chatting to some of the reprobates from Cambridge MAFVA in the pub this week, one of them mentioned that it would be worth including a few show dates. I do not have details for all of them but the following are the ones of which I am aware: 19/09/99 Spalding Model Show, Spalding, Lincs 25-26/09/99 Euromilitaire, Folkestone, Kent 03/10/99 Mildenhall Model Show, Mildenhall, Suffolk 16/10/99 Gravesham Military Model Show, Gravesend, Kent 23-24/10/99 IPMS UK Nationals, Telford 24/10/99 SELWG wargames show, S London somewhere? 14/11/99 Letchworth Model Show, Letchworth, Herts I admit that they are all in the UK and also all within the Cambridge area, but if you have any events to publicise, please feel free to post the details. It is also worth mentioning overseas shows - for example, apparently there is one in Melbourne next March, which happens to coincide with my intended visit to the Aussie GP, so I will try to attend that as well. Rob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Lockie (Think Tank Listmaster) Visit the Miniature AFV Association website at http://members.wbs.net/homepages/m/a/f/mafva/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume