From: Think Tank Subject: Think Tank Vol. 0005 26/09/1999 Think.tank@tesco.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS' INDEX 1: Ontos 2: ONTOS 3: Some thoughts on finishing 4: ONTOS 5: Sherman IIC Firefly 6: Euromilitaire 7: M50 Ontos 8: ONTOS 9: WW1 Russian Colours 10: First kit and numbers question 11: Ontos 12: Ontos 13: Color info help needed 14: Upgunned StuG III 15: RAF Blue Grey 16: Allied Softskins 17: Ontos 18: Sherman IIC Firefly 19: 1/200 scale -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Reminders -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Al Superczynski [modeleral@up-link.net] Subject: Ontos >> I'm researching and collecting info on the USMC ONTOS (VietNam-era), I plan on scratchbuilding one.... and I believe it carried six 106mm recoilless rifles. Unfortunately, I'm short on pictorial references for the armament. There's one of the vehicles at the local USMC Reserve base, but the guns were replaced with lengths of PVC pipe. Any reference ideas or pics will be greatly appreciated << I've got some Ontos pics posted at http://users.aol.com/alsuper/Ontos . HTH, Al http://www.up-link.net/~modeleral -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Alpaslan Ertungealp [alp_ert@mail.matav.hu] Subject: ONTOS A copy of my message to Doug follows: Hobby-Fan (of Taiwan I guess) is producing ONTOS in 1/35 scale. I don't want to discourage your scratch build but if you can afford it get one. Most mail-order outlets have it and many similar stuff from the same manufacturer (Jaguar models, VLS, etc.) They produce post WWII armor and figures. ALP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Paul Roberts [paul.roberts@rcpcanada.com] Subject: Some thoughts on finishing I will speak up here and say that Bob's right. A judge who can't put his own methods aside and see what is before him (hopefully learning something in the process) shouldn't be judging, and won't be if I catch him at it. Also, while I certainly don't require drybrushing, a modeler has only himself to blame if, through an overly monochrome finish and a lack of any attempt to simulate the highlighting effects of natural light on an object (and this includes the "scale" effect on paint colours) the judges can't see or don't appreciate everything he has done to the model. At AMPS overall appeal counts for 1/10 of the possible points, more on scratchbuilds. In the senior skill level, if you lose that point from each judge, you won't have enough points to win a gold no matter what else you've done. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Paul Roberts [paul.roberts@rcpcanada.com] Subject: ONTOS I have passed on to Doug an offer to scan the photos I have of the Ontos at Knox. If anyone else wants them, let me know, off list, at: proberts@tamcotec.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Paul Roberts [paul.roberts@rcpcanada.com] Subject: Sherman IIC Firefly It apparently didn't although the Grizzly IC at Borden comes awfully close. And it's a real Firefly, all the stowage internally and externally is as it should be. Sorry, but I understand the CFB Borden vehicle to be a 17pdr turret locally rigged on a Grizzly hull. Are you sure that the internal stowage is Firefly (i.e. no ammunition in sponsons, co-driver replaced by 17pdr shell stowage etc.)? Oh, and the 'IIIC' (M4A2) at Axvall in Sweden is a similarly bodged local job with a turret from a VC. Source for both the above is Dick Harley's article in Tankette 29/5, found via the Tankette indices spreadsheet. Naturally, I am open to contradiction, given that I have never actually seen either 'in the metal' but Spike Judd has seen the Borden example and assures me that the plate over the hull MG is not the substantial affair seen on other Fireflies. Incidentally, the same article makes reference to the lack of IICs. All Fireflies were converted from dry stowage hulls, the last of which M4A1 version was produced in 12/1943. Subsequent M4A1s had wet stowage with 76m guns. The last of the dry M4A1s had the late hull hatches (like those on the wet hulls) and were turned into DDs, of which a couple still exist and one is illustrated in Bellfield and Essame's 'The Battle for Normandy' driving down a road. However, I suspect that most either sank on the approach to the beaches or were probably knocked out in the first few days of battles after the Overlord landings. Listmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Paul Roberts [paul.roberts@rcpcanada.com] Subject: Euromilitaire I will be at Euromilitaire representing MAFVA next weekend, so the next edition should go out on the evening of Sunday26th September. This is all assuming that I am in a fit state to compile it after a couple of nights of the usual prayer and fasting that seems to be an inevitable accompaniment to such weekends…. Pass the salted hosts and sacramental wine will ya Spike? Paul Roberts Chief Judge AMPS2K proberts@tamcotec.com One day Spike (now the owner of a shiny new PC and heavy user of my limited IT expertise!) may even be connected to the net and may even be able to read such messages himself. Anyway, he sends his regards. Listmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Wim Vink [whv@wv-atomic-annie.demon.nl] Subject: M50 Ontos Hi Doug, I have LOTS and LOTS of information about the M50 Ontos. Including photos, some drawings and TECHNICAL MANUALS!! If you are interested just let me know. Kind regards, Wim Vink Holland whv@wv-atomic-annie.demon.nl -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Jeffry J. Fontaine [jeffryfontaine@hotmail.com] Subject: ONTOS Hello Think Tankers; I was browsing some URLs gathered during a search for information about the last Military unit I served with on active duty and came across a guy by the name of "MODELHAWK" who is a model builder and also has a Web Page. I sent him a quick hello and found out that he is an armor modeler. To make things interesting he told me that he has a resin ONTOS that he picked up through his local hobby shop. I asked him for more details such as price and the mailing address for the company that makes the kit, but that information is still pending. The information that the MODELHAWK did provide was the name of the company that makes the ONTOS; a company called "NIMIX." The MODELHAWK says that for a 1/35 scale ONTOS. "This one isn't bad...fairly well detailed and looks reasonable accurate. The individual resin track links look like they will be a bit of a pain, though." I hope this can narrow your search, and if you find the address for the company, let me know. afn, jjf I am pretty sure that at least one of the subscribers to this list acquired the Nimix kit last year (you know who you are John!) so no doubt he will have built it by now and can give us the benefit of his experience) Listmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Jeffry J. Fontaine [jeffryfontaine@hotmail.com] Subject: WW1 Russian Colours Hello again Think Tank; I had the pleasure to meet a fellow model builder here in Bremerton, Washington that is actually building models, unlike myself, though I have every intention of doing so. My new acquaintance introduced himself through the Ship Modelers Mailing List to me. His name is James Gray and he has a nice article on VVS Russian Air Forces colors and camouflage of W.W.II. Though you are referring to W.W.I Armor colors, I feel that you should take the time to read James's article as it is quite informative and provides some good information on Russian paint colors. The whole article can be found at; http://www.geocities.com/~ipmsfortcrook/VVS/james-kp.html enjoy and be enlightened. afn, jjf -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Airfix [keithbutterley@mybc.com] Subject: First kit and numbers question Hi all, I have never built an AFV in my life. I have spent the last forty years building mostly aircraft and the last few years, ship models. Is there one particular kit or maker of same, that the group recommends that can be built OOB, that makes a fairly accurate model. At this time I am not interested in having to do any major mods or prettying it up a la PE for ships. How many tanks in a typical American, British, German and Soviet armoured division during WWII? Keith Butterley President & CEO The Weak-Eyed and All Thumbs Shipbuilding Co. In terms of lack of any horror stories in terms of accuracy or assembly (i.e. no individual link track), I would say that Tamiya's Cromwell is a good bet. Also, if they sell another one it might encourage them to do some more British stuff… Listmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Alpaslan Ertungealp [alp_ert@mail.matav.hu] Subject: Ontos Hi Doug, Hobby-Fan is producing one in 1/35 scale. I don't want to discourage your scratch build but if you can afford it get one. Most mail-order outlets have it and many similar stuff from the same manufacturer.(Jaguar models, VLS, etc.) They produce post WWII armor and figures. ALP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Bradford Chaucer [BChaucer@ix.netcom.com] Subject: Ontos There is also a 1/35 kit of the Ontos from Hobby Fan, though it is rather expensive. Regards, Bradford Chaucer BChaucer@ix.netcom.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: George J. Stein [gjstein@mindspring.com] Subject: Color info help needed SHQ Miniatures in the UK (available from Brookhurst in the US) sells a 1:76 (20mm) metal: Vickers Carden Lloyd Light Tank used by the Dutch in the Netherlands East Indies. SHQ also sells WW-II Dutch infantry & marines. As the uniforms in the East Indies were the same cut, but in lighter fabric, painting the soldiers for a WW-II "Pacific" diorama is no problem. However, I can find no reference material to Dutch East Indies armor -- especially colors & markings. I'm tempted to use Vickers factory finish green. Any ideas??? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Øyvind Leonsen [leodes@yahoo.com] Subject: Upgunned StuG III Hello! Photos of upgunned StugIIIs can be found in several books. In Peter G. Tsouras´ book "The Great Patriotic War" there is a photo of such a vehicle abandoned in the Courland pocket, 1945. W.J.Spielberger's book on the StuG family has the same picture as far as I recall. Also, one of the new Concord books, "Tank battles on the Eastern Front" Vol. 2 1943-45 also has a photo, not very good, though. Hope this helps Øyvind Leonsen IPMS Norway -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Cooper, Mike [Mike.Cooper@reading.gov.uk] Subject: RAF Blue Grey Dear All. Made a worrying discovery (for me - maybe old news for you). >From the 1930s until (officially August 1941) RAF softskins were RAF Blue. This was BS381c (1930) colour 33 Blue Grey. OK. Now like I guess most people I'd assumed that it was Humbrol 96. Oh no....very much no.... I got a look at the colour standard thanks to Mike Starmer. 96 isn't a bad match for uniforms BUT the vehicle colour is much darker and much less blue. For the moment I'm trying Mumbrol 77+112 in ratio 2:1 ish OR 77+79 in about 1:1. This needs to be semi matt and the first mix is rather dark. Watch this Space. By the way, I understand the Navy used Dark Admiralty Grey which is c. Humbrol 112 at this period. Any further information/comments much appreciated Interestingly, the WW2 in colour series on ITV has just shown some kit in 1943-44 still in this colour, confirming the approximate shade. Normally I wouldn't fuss too much, but the two are very different. The sequence for (new painting) RAF in WW2 is 1939-Aug 41 - RAF Blue. Some use of camouflage in 40, colours uncertain. Aug 41-45 as Army. The broad army sequence, for base tones is 1939-42 - Middle Bronze Green/Khaki Green G3. 1941-42 - Green or Standard Camouflage Colour (SCC)2 (brown) 1942-May 44 - SCC2. May 44-45 Standard Camouflage Colour 15 (Olive Drab). This is the sequence set up for new painting and re-painting in NW Europe/UK and is base tones only. Pattern camouflage is as per Army. If anyone wants matches I can supply them from Mike Starmer's original material. Best bet RAF tone for Middle East up to Oct.42 is BS381c No.61 Light Stone, but RAF Fordsons and Rolls, for example show up in the three tone Caunter schemes detailed in Tankette recently. I've not done enough work, but I wouldn't be surprised to see RAF vehicles conforming to the Middle East army colours later than this date too, giving Desert Pink for Tunisia and perhaps Light Mud for Italy. This said, I've a picture of a captured Stoewer in browns, following Army UK patterns, which is obviously in the Med. (Probably Italy). See forthcoming items on Valentines in IPMS Magazine for more detail. Mike Cooper Mike Cooper, EU Specialist Reading Reference Library Abbey Square Reading RG1 3BQ Tel: 0118 901 5955/56 Fax: 0118 9015954/5959 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Malcolm Waite [mw99@rapid.co.uk] Subject: Allied Softskins Help! Back in the late 70's Battle Magazine ran a series called "Focus on Allied Softskins" which I collected, finally after all these years I have got round to filing/indexing them and I discover I have one missing. It's number 14, Canadian Military Pattern part 4 and I think it was in the June 1977 issue, can anybody help? Malcolm Waite Liverpool UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: IAN HANRATTY [IAN@hanra.freeserve.co.uk] Subject: ONTOS I may be wrong but I seem to recall that a few years ago someone, possibly AER, used to advertise in FINE SCALE MODELLER an ONTOS vehicle; it may have been on the THE MARCO POLO ADVERT. Also I think REVELL, in their history makers series, had an ONTOS but I cannot recall the scale. It may have been another manufacturer, I just can't recall. I hope this is of some help. IAN HANRATTY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: IAN HANRATTY [IAN@hanra.freeserve.co.uk] Subject: Sherman IIC Firefly Thanks everyone for your help. Please see the attached photo taken from a book. Sorry for the quality but it's all I can find. Ian Hanratty Unfortunately I am unable to attach the photo Ian sent but viewing it and the caption using the rather inadequate video card in this PC suggests that it is of the CFB Borden vehicle to which reference is made above. I suggest that anyone wanting a copy contact Ian direct. Incidentally, there is (as far as I know) no technical problem to prevent images being attached to the list - I have taken a view that it is preferable not to have space-consuming attachments as part of it as not all subscribers may be interested in a given subject and if we are not careful, we could end up with dozens of images in each issue. There is nothing to prevent anyone inviting interested parties to contact them direct if they are interested in seeing attachments. I am happy to take people's opinions on the subject but please bear in mind that some of us have the fortune to live in countries where we have to pay for our online time! Listmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: IAN HANRATTY [IAN@hanra.freeserve.co.uk] Subject: 1/200 scale In one of the pervious issues I recall someone was looking for spoked wheels for 1/200 scale models. Have you thought about N gauge model railway detailing sets that sometimes contain spoked wheels for the engine cab controls? I hope this is of some help IAN HANRATTY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Listmaster Subject: Reminders Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far - this is the longest issue to date. However, a few requests if I may: Please ensure that you are sending any posts to think.tank@tesco.net and not to my other address Please put a subject line for all posts - if you wish to cover multiple subjects, either refer to all in the subject line or send multiple posts (otherwise I have to make up the title) Where possible, please avoid including large chunks of the original message in your reply as it takes up space. Self-contained replies which do not require the reader to have the original posting are ideal, particularly for new subscribers who missed the original enquiry. That's all folks Thanks Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Lockie (Think Tank Listmaster) Visit the Miniature AFV Association website at http://homepages.go.com/~mafva/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume