From: Think Tank Subject: Think Tank Vol. 0006 02/10/1999 Think.tank@tesco.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS' INDEX 1: ONTOS 2: Crazy WWII German Gun 3: Firefly 1c North West Europe 4: Sending pictures 5: ONTOS info assistance 6: Sherman 1Bs 7: Armoured Vehicles of Eire 8: Army Open Days 9: Euro Militaire 99 10: Borden Firefly 11: Dragon kits wanted 12: Dutch East Indies Armour 13: Warrior MAOV -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Tankette indices to 34/5 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Alpaslan Ertungealp [alp_ert@mail.matav.hu] Subject: ONTOS Hi, I guess both offers might be interesting for list members. Rather than writing to both contributors (above) off-list I preferred to put this message on the list. Is there any possibility to put information from multiple sources into a file, which list members could reach directly? (This question is directed to the listmaster). Ooooh, that sounds distinctly like a website to me. I have the facility to establish one but have yet to master the intricacies of html and in any case, one of the ideas behind the list was to minimise online time collecting data! Perhaps one of our more IT-aware subscribers has some bright suggestions on this one. I am happy to facilitate anyone who wishes to take on the task but time constraints are currently a problem for me. Listmaster Space-modelers list (at eGroups.com) has a file called the "vault", where common info including pics and graphics can be stored (attachments to messages are not accepted among list members as these may be harmful). I guess there are many, who would be interested in these sources. We could even divide the list into sections as WWI, WWII, Korea, VietNam and later. Why not help improve the possibilities and the capability of this list. Any ideas? Is there a list member, who could offer free space for similar purposes? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Kelvin Mok [klmok@home.com] Subject: Crazy WWII German Gun I attended a model exhibition on Sat Sep 25 and saw an unusual 1/35 scale eight barrel 20mm German contraption on a modified (lengthened legs) Flakvierling mount. Two vertical rows of four 20 mm cannons each were mounted on either side of a central body. The seated right hand gunner had two handwheels (traverse and azimuth?) and an open sight. The seat for a left hand gunner was probably there for weight balance :-) as the model did not show any hand cranks or foot pedals that could provide him with something to do nor did he have a gunsight. To load the gun was a platform with a railing much in the manner of the US Navy 40 mm Bofors. The guy behind the desk said that it was probably an experimental design that was never produced. The exhibitor wasn't there to give more details but I think it is probably a resin kit. (anyone knows?) I can't remember the model designation of that gun. The diorama was dated as a scene from 1945. The wartime engineer who thought up that up probably never considered the design's anomalies. It's probably impossible to synchronise eight guns. Their recoils would likely shake the contraption apart or at worst make holding aim impossible. Each gun magazine would be good for a five second burst and to reload eight magazine would take 30 seconds or more during which time the crew would be sitting ducks. And by 1945 the 20 mm cannon was no longer an effective anti aircraft weapon. ----- Kelvin Mok (klmok@home.com) Home: (780) 463-4099 | Home FAX: (780) 430-7120 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Malcolm Waite [mw99@rapid.co.uk] Subject: Firefly 1c North West Europe Does anybody have any information about how common Firefly 1Cs were in North West Europe 1944/45? I noticed Hunnicutt shows one in Normandy, but I have always thought of it as a very rare vehicle compared with the VC. Malcolm N. Waite Liverpool UK Tracklink 41 (the magazine of the Friends of the Tank Museum) contains a very useful article by Peter Brown on the contents of the RAC six-monthly reports produced during WW2, at the end of each June and each December. The Polish AD had two ICs in 6/44 but everyone else was using VCs. Unfortunately, the 12/44 tables no longer classify by gun and hull type and only the gun type is specified. Tracklink 46 has a further article by Mike Taylor, who has spent some years trawling files in the PRO. Notes to a report dated 08/07/44 refer to some Sherman 17pdr in 27AB which are not identified as VC, so they might be ICs. However, by 13/10/44, 259 ICs are listed as forecast deliveries for 21AG, with 47 in 11/44 and a further 67 in 12/44. Incidentally, although this report lists vehicles by type and armament, there are no IICs listed at all. As to the units which would have had them, the only units based on radial engined Shermans were 4AB and 33AB. I own, but have temporarily mislaid in my less than perfect filing system, an IWM photo of Guards AD vehicles including, I am fairly sure, at least one M4 17pdr but most of the radial engined ones seem to be hybrids. Finally, a photo in JL Moulton's book 'The Battle for Antwerp' shows a welded hull IC with cast differential and captioned as belonging to the Fort Garry Horse, 2Cdn AB near the South Beveland Canal on 29/10/44. I too would be interested to hear of any others. Listmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Kelvin Mok [klmok@home.com] Subject: Sending pictures If I may chime in, most of us probably spend more time on surfing other Web sites heavy on graphics. When relevant armor pics are attached to this NG's posting this will probably save the reader time by not having to go to another site to view them. And there is always the option of not viewing the pics if the download time is expensive. This rebuts the argument about on-line time. The other point is that after an initial flush, the frequency of postings with attached pics will decline to an occasional one. The problem, if any, will solve itself. ----- Kelvin Mok (klmok@home.com) Home: (780) 463-4099 | Home FAX: (780) 430-7120 Any other views, people? Listmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Douglas Bauer [dbauer@access1.net] Subject: ONTOS info assistance I want to thank all those who stepped up to help me with information on the ONTOS vehicle.... several offers of scanned photographs, and tips on available models. Thanks to all of you, and to the Listmaster for bringing us this fine opportunity to exchange information and modelling tips. Best regards, Doug Bauer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Cooper, Mike [Mike.Cooper@reading.gov.uk] Subject: Sherman 1Bs Dear All Sorry to distract everyone from Sherman 1/IIC queries, but can I ask a quicky about Sherman 1Bs?? I'm doing a 1B with VVS in Italy. a. Did the Brits fit turret bins to their few 1Bs? b. Did all 105 Shermans have the late "high" bustle? This one has the late cupola and additional roof hatch. c. Anyone got any evidence for the roof roundel in use this late in Italy - my only photo is a nose three quarter in 'Sherman Tank in British Service'? Given the additional roof hatch and virtual lack of markings bar a tacsign I'd be surprised to see it, but it does show up on Vs. I wonder when it stopped being used - pretty late I think. My hunch is high bustle, no bin , no roundel..... Mike Cooper PS. Please let me know if you'd like .doc file of a summary on British Tank colours. This one is almost certainly a very very dusty No 9 Olive Drab, but if the Brits did add a bin then the REME may have re sprayed in SCC15. The difference is slight and only shows in fading. Note how green the OD half tracks looked on the WW2 in Colour prog on ITV. Mike Cooper, EU Specialist Reading Reference Library Abbey Square Reading RG1 3BQ Tel: 0118 901 5955/56 Fax: 0118 9015954/5959 Ah, more Shermans. Had a trawl through my back issues of AFV News (fine publication, well worth the asking price of about CDN$13 a year) and found some stuff by Phil Dyer on the subject in 24/1, 25/1 and 25/3. The raised bustle turret was introduced to allow the larger hatches on the 47 degree hull to be opened when the turret was traversed to 6 o'clock. As I recall, all 105mm Shermans were 47 degree hulls (but not wet stowage) so a high bustle should be the one. All high bustle turrets also had loader's hatches (unless anyone knows differently!). Listmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: John Harris [john@ukmilmod.force9.co.uk] Subject: Armoured Vehicles of Eire Really just a quick plea for any information on the Armoured Vehicles of the Irish Republic, especially their tracked vehicles. I know of the a/c at Bovington, and I understand some vehicles are preserved (though not accessable) at the Curragh. Anyway, thanks in advance John Harris john@ukmilmod.force9.co.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: John Harris [john@ukmilmod.force9.co.uk] Subject: Army Open Days Sorry if this is a bit parochial, but is there any place where 'local' British Army units and sites 'Open Days' are advertised? I know many site have Open Days during the summer(?) months, for example Marchwood Military Port and Sandhurst, which are open to all visitors, Soldier magazine does not seem to mention them, security concerns perhaps? I learnt (too late) that the recent launch of the airmobile brigade at Wattisham was open to the public, though you had to 'pre-book' with the MoD, yet photography was permitted! Advance news of these events would be helpful. Thanks in advance John Harris john@ukmilmod.force9.co.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: John Harris [john@ukmilmod.force9.co.uk] Subject: Euro Militaire 99 A short review of Euro Militaire 99 I attended EM last Saturday, an unsettled day weather-wise, which was perhaps reflected in the impression of low attendance, there certainly did not seem to be the crush in the main hall I have come to expect. New models from Accurate Armour, Centurion ARV Mk.2, Ferret Mk.4 (Big Wheel), VT34 ARV conversion, various Warrior conversions and updates (more details on my web site), Cromwell Models, Centurion Mk.5, Covenanter Mk.1, various updates for the Academy Merkava III, in 1/76th Centurions Mk.2, 3, 5 and a Ben Gurion, Azimut had a nice (and pricey) Morris C9B with 40mm Bofors and a couple of French a/c. Resicast had nothing new, due to the proprietor breaking his collar-bone playing rugby. A couple of stands had the new AFV Club M113 with Scorpion turret and Hummer kits. Militarmodellbau had the new (and very reasonable) working tracks for the Leopard I by Elite. A new, to military modelling, company called Winson Model Technology was touting for interest in a range of 1/8th scale AFVs, all metal, designed for radio control, proposed price in the £2,000 range!. I think I would opt for a real 1/1 Ferret at that sort of price! Two stands stood out for comment, one was flogging 'Action Man' and 'G.I. Joe' figures, which are now marketed as 'collectors' items and priced to match, still a vast range is available. The other was a stand selling 'cold cast porcelain' figures apparently based on the characters in a far eastern cartoon series, very nicely executed, but the figures are heavily stylised in the 'anime' genre. As in past years a adjacent marquee was available for the 'overspill', including the MAFVA stand, but many of the other tables were unoccupied. Remember next year's show will be at an alternative venue, due to the refurbishment of the Leas Hall, so make a date for. Euro Militaire 2000 The Saga Pavillion Sandgate High Street Kent 23rd-24th September 2000 Regards John Harris http://www.ukmilmod.force9.co.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Paul Roberts [paul.roberts@rcpcanada.com] Subject: Borden Firefly Sorry, but I understand the CFB Borden vehicle to be a 17pdr turret locally rigged on a Grizzly hull. Are you sure that the internal stowage is Firefly (i.e. no ammunition in sponsons, co-driver replaced by 17pdr shell stowage etc.)? Oh, and the 'IIIC' (M4A2) at Axvall in Sweden is a similarly bodged local job with a turret from a VC. Source for both the above is Dick Harley's article in Tankette 29/5, found via the Tankette indices spreadsheet. Naturally, I am open to contradiction, given that I have never actually seen either 'in the metal' but Spike Judd has seen the Borden example and assures me that the plate over the hull MG is not the substantial affair seen on other Fireflies. Au contraire, mien listmeister. The Borden Griz is indeed a Firefly. The curator has been inside and she is full of Firefly kit. All the external turret AND hull fittings are present as well. The MG plug in not as per the British made Fireflies, but is a substantial flame cut plug stuffed into the MG opening and welded flush with the vertical face of the MG ball mount "divot" in the hull profile. It is posited that the Griz was made at the RCEME shops at Bordon as a trial in case more were needed to be made in North America, but this is only conjecture. I've been there, climbed on it and asked Keith, the Curator, personally. She be real. Paul Roberts Chief Judge AMPS2K proberts@tamcotec.com Mea culpa - you learn something every day. That is the most comprehensive report I have seen on the Borden vehicle so thanks for posting it. I suspect that the suggestion that it was done as a test is correct, although I still doubt that any of them saw combat service. Listmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Listmaster Subject: Dragon kits wanted I have recently been taken by a wish to build one of the highly-regarded Dragon Jagdpanzer 38t kits (what we used to call Hetzers), only to find that the thing is long out of production and practically unobtainable. Hannants had one listed on the website but has sold out and I am out of ideas. HobbyLink Japan was also a no-go. What I am after is either the command or Flammpanzer version, so if anyone sees one, I would appreciate a steer towards it. Thanks Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: JOHN PAULDING [john.paulding@virgin.net] Subject: Dutch East Indies Armour Subject Dutch East Indies armour - colours & markings The Military Museum in Delft, Holland has a reasonable collection of armour and a small section on the Dutch East Indies. You could start your search there. I don't know if they have a website, perhaps some Dutch modellers can help (Wim!). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Listmaster Subject: Warrior MAOV I have been asked whether the Warrior MAOV with M-STAR was used in the Gulf War in 1991. Apparently the Osprey book says it was but the instructions for the Accurate Armour Kit say not. This is well outside my knowledge so can anyone help? Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Listmaster Subject: Tankette indices to 34/5 The latest update to the Tankette indices is now available. The format is as an MS Excel 5 file of some 2,200 lines and if you are not already on the mailing list and would like to be added, please contact me at rlockie@hfs.co.uk for a copy. The file is updated with every new issue and sent out in self-extracting zip form. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Lockie (Think Tank Listmaster) Visit the Miniature AFV Association website at http://homepages.go.com/~mafva/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume