From: Think Tank Subject: Think Tank Vol.0012 13/11/1999 Think.tank@tesco.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS' INDEX 1: M113 A1 2: Half-track interiors 3: Russian colours 4: Tank tracks 5: Tank Transporters 6: SA-6 Gainful SAM 7: German HT interior colours 8: Painting Tracks 9: Dragon Sdkfz 250 neu art -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Forthcoming SCW book -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Koenraad Cracco [cracck@pandora.be] Subject: M113 A1 I am currently working on Academy's M113 A. I plan to make the U.S. version (with recoilless rifle on top). I noticed that the kit has a very well detailed engine/interior, so I want to build the model with the engine compartment exposed. Could anyone help me with following questions: - What colour was the engine compartment painted/primed? - What colour was the driver's compartment painted? - What colour was the crew compartment painted? (the manufacturer's guide only mentions "light interior", so this is not helpful at all). Also, any interesting sites on the M113 in Vietnam are helpful. Thanks a lot Koenraad G.E. Cracco 22 Seringenstraat B 8800 Roeselare Belgium I assume from the last question that you intend to model your M113 in Viet Nam. I seem to be lacking interior colour data for that period, but Chris Benedict wrote a piece in Tankette 16/2 which related the contents of an Army Regulation of February 1976. The interior colours may have been the same before then, although the exterior colour scheme was changed by that order. Anyway, for the M113 series, the interior of the driver's and crew compartment was to be painted semi-gloss green (I have heard it described as 'sea foam green') FS24533, with hatch interiors in OD. The interior green is, as I recall, a fairly pale colour but as I do not have a sample, I cannot offer you a match. I have no firm information on the engine compartment but would guess at gloss white as it is the colour used on other US AFV engine bays. The rationale, I imagine, is the same as that behind painting undercarriages white - it shows up any leaks better. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: MALCOLM IRESON [ireson@carltons36.freeserve.co.uk] Subject: Half-track interiors I have been lucky enough to have been inside a 251 at Beltring this and last year, I know that the particular vehicle was originally a Czech version made shortly after the war, but the owner assured me that this is the nearest thing to the real thing going! The outside was painted in three colour camo, but the inside was standard German yellow (dunkelgelb). I suppose you could paint the inside off white, and call it primer, or even winter camo. As an idea, it may be worth writing to Mr. David Fletcher, who is the librarian of the tank museum at Bovington. In the past I have written to him with various problems, and he has always answered my letters, or you could try the tank museum web page , I don't have the address to hand, but I found it by tapping in `tank museum` into a search engine, this also gives you the address of Saumur tank museum in France!! Sorry I can't be of any more help, Good luck, keep us posted to what you find out. Malcolm Ireson. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Cooper, Mike [Mike.Cooper@reading.gov.uk] Subject: Russian colours First of all, apologies for the delay in preparing this! I must stress that this is a provisional look at the subject by a non-specialist without direct access to such primary sources as exist. In looking at historical vehicle colours my own method is to concentrate as much as possible on filtering out what I think I know, and what I'd like to be true. Often this leaves me with very little to work on, and hence falling back on the best - or apparently the best - secondary sources. Soviet colours present a particular set of problems, as a. The primary documentary sources - if they still exist - are not available over here in the UK b. Where they do exist they show considerable possibility for variation c. Where the documentation exists, it seems at variance with photographic and colour Chip evidence d. Russian modelers and researchers report that the Red Army even in peace time was less standardised about its colours than, for example, the British Army. Evidence 1. Primary Documentation So far e-mail discussion with Russian colleagues has produced only one reference to a primary document. This is to an "Instruction on painting of 1941". This document gives the formula for a green described as 4BO. The transcription is available at: http://www.dol.ru/users/hotdog/4bo.htm The green is based on yellow ochre (40-60%), zinc chromate (15-20%), white (10-20% and ultramarine (8-13%). The site notes that attempts to reconstruct it have resulted in greens approximating FS595a 34226 and 258. Both these are fairly light greens. The original document apparently states that the finish should be smooth. The only other contemporary account I have seen is in the BBC book 'War of the Century', where a German veteran describes Soviet tanks as "black" in a letter home. Translated German notes in the growing Soviet orders of battle series of publications say simply dark green. Conclusion: The official base tone was known as 4BO, and light green varying in tone. However, other colours were in use. 2. Secondary Documentation In a number of his publications Steve Zaloga refers to Soviet tanks in the Great Patriotic War as being a very dark, almost black, green, with occasional use of a dull brown and a dull sand. Various Russian and Polish titles have shown sands and dark red-browns too. E-mail on the Russian War Club list (kindly provided by George Hogg) states that the Russian Du-Pont Hobby firm apparently makes a set for Soviet colours. This includes 'Forest Green'/4BO which matches FS34127. The kit also includes 4BG - 'Light Khaki' - FS34259 'Light Sand' - FS23578 'Military Brown' - FS 30117 Secondary sources note both black and white were available, and that 4BO was not always available. Other colours used, according to e-mail vary from 'khaki brown' to 'grass green' and note the use of a colour matching FS34087 and actual US Army No.9 Olive Drab in some instances. Dmitry Shumakov mailed me saying "It's a question even here in Russia", and noting that as colours were mixed so they varied with the tone of the components. He notes an attempt to standardize 4BO for aircraft use as AMT-4, close to FS34102, and has heard of a document mentioning a dark brown (6K) and a light sand (7K). 3. Paint chips Paint chips - if original - tell us what colour individual tanks actually were, as opposed to what they should be. They do not tell us anything about vehicles not sampled. So far I know of only two accounts of recovered chips. In the Airfix Magazine Guide 'Russian Tanks of World War 2' (PSL, 1977), Steve Zaloga states (without citing a source) that the KVs and T-34s sent to Aberdeen Proving Grounds and Bovington were FS24052. In Tankette 27/3 of 1992, Reinhard Ringl. records chips taken from tanks in the Military Historical Museum in Vienna as being FS34095, 14062, 34089, 34096 and 34087. Some of these are of 1950s origin, but at least the match to 34095 comes from a 1945 sample. Conclusion: The samples recovered suggest that in 1942 and 1945 Soviet tanks were painted a very dark olive green. 4. Photographs A lot depends on the light, film, filters and condition of the vehicle, but I think enough photos exist for some conclusions to be teased out. A few German and American colour shots suggest very strongly that a dark green - greener than US Olive Drab, but of about the same tone - was in use. Black and white photographs are of course less helpful, but in general they seem to suggest that whatever Soviet tanks were painted, they came out at about the same tone as panzer grey German ones, No.9 OD US ones and British ones in both Standard Camouflage Colour 15 and the earlier Khaki Green G3. All these are medium-dark colours. There are of course exceptions…. Conclusion: Soviet Tanks were generally painted a dark/medium-dark colour, which may be inferred to be a green. Conclusion We have a problem!! Clearly, if the matches given are right, the official green is nowhere near dark enough to be the green on paint chips and in colour photos. In any case, just based on the mix it must be a fairly light/light-medium tone - as Mike Starmer has pointed out, there is no black in it at all. I do not think that we can conclude that Soviet tanks were any green from FS34258 to 34052 - this simply is not logical as we have little evidence for anything between the extremes. We can conclude that a range of greens was in use, but the only evidence we have suggests either lighter or darker tones. Photographic evidence tends towards the latter, but is difficult to interpret. What we do know is that on a very small number of tanks where authenticated 1940s paint has been examined, the results show dark - in some cases very dark - olive greens. On top of the green base, a small number of AFVs, but probably a greater number of artillery pieces, used one to three tones for camouflage. These could include a rich dark brown (in the range of British SCC2 and US Field Drab, perhaps) and a sand tone, and/or a light khaki with black. We can expect that each of these would be as subject to variation as the base green. I have just had some comms. from Steve Zaloga on the subject of Russian wartime colours. He tells me of a new Russian book by Maksim Kolomiets which has the official colour instructions for wartime vehicles along with appropriate colour designations. No more details as yet but hopefully more will come to light shortly. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: John Harris [john@ukmilmod.force9.co.uk] Subject: Tank tracks Mmm, not entirely sure about microwaving resin tracks, do you use the 'defrost' setting? Personally I stick to a hair dryer, you only need the cheapest sort, a 12v 'travel' model would be ideal. Another thought is that you must get plastic track very hot with the hair-dryer to soften them much, I use the slightly tedious method of weakening the joints on the inside with a swift saw cut, this allows the tracks to be 'shaped'. It is certainly an advantage to paint tracks off the vehicle Yours with burnt fingers John Harris There was a thread on SMML a while back about fixing warped resin ship parts (mainly hulls and superstructure lumps). The microwave method was suggested but as I recall, it was pointed out that the microwave treatment can release various noxious gases and possible carcinogens, so the (low temperature - c150 degrees!) oven method was suggested as a better alternative. This might well be too extreme for a thin track, so the hairdryer or boiling water method is probably preferable for that. Being more of a 'theoretical' modeller who sees the whole business as a problem-solving exercise and has difficulty getting anything built in tangible form, I have, of course, not yet reached the stage of fitting any of the resin tracks in my collection….. I have built a couple of runs of Friul's metal track though. Very nice, if ruinously expensive, especially if you have bought the kit at some cheap second hand vendor and the track now costs four times the price of the rest of the model! Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: John Harris [john@ukmilmod.force9.co.uk] Subject: Tank Transporters Hello A very general question to one and all, did the Soviets own and operate tank transporters during the Second World War? I can't recall any pictures or reference to such vehicles. John Harris john@ukmilmod.force9.co.uk UK Military Modelling http://www.ukmilmod.force9.co.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Douglas Bauer [dbauer@access1.net] Subject: SA-6 Gainful SAM I'm looking for a website or somebody who has some clear detail shots of the Soviet SA-6 Gainful surface-to-air missile launcher. I know this was modeled in 1/35 scale, but not sure if it was resin kit (if it was, does anyone know who produced it) or a scratchbuild... I plan to scratch it in 1/72. T(h)anks for any help. Doug Bauer dbauer@access1.net Gordon Brown of Cromwell Models makes a kit of the SA-6 in 1/35 - is a conversion to fit the suspension and lower hull of the Dragon ZSU-23-4V1. He also makes a complete kit of it in 1/76. Gordon has a website at: http://www.xs4all.nl/~cromwell and his email address is cromwell@xs4all.nl Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Tony Edwards [tones@mail.suncity.com.au] Subject: German HT interior colours Hi, looking at all the photos I have of the 250 and 251 series' of HTs, it appears that you can really write your own rules here... some (most?) of the early ones had the driver's compartment painted in "elfenbein" the buff/ivory colour that's often referred to as white, but the later ones (say from 1940 on) were just sprayed all over "dunklegelb", tho some of the later variants do have the driver's compartment again painted buff... Yes, after examining the photos of the 251s in the Squadron Signal, Ryton and other books (thanks Chris and Paul), it is apparent that although seatbacks are sometimes white (no idea why - doesn't really make sense), the rest of the cab interior is basically the same tone as the driver's flesh. This led me to the elfenbein solution as well (some photos show white sheets of paper or instrument dials which are much lighter), although I am happy that the late war (the order was issued in February 1943) ones would have been dunkelgelb inside. I have also seen a photo (Schutzenpanzer, p163) which shows a big contrast between the colour of the white dial and the surrounding dashboard and interior. It looks too dark to be elfenbein or dunkelgelb and dunkelgrau is my best bet. Page 155 of the Sturm & Drang book on the 250 and 251 shows the interior of a 250 which also looks pretty dark all the way to the firewall - likewise the 251 on p16 of the same book. All in all, I am not yet convinced that there was much use of white in the interiors, as the only evidence I have seen is on the back of a driver's seat. One final question - how widespread was the late war German practice of leaving the base colour as red oxide primer? Was it just the heavy AFVs or others as well? I suspect that the insides of the stowage bins, engine bay etc. might well have been left in primer but have no confirmation. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Tony Edwards [tones@mail.suncity.com.au] Subject: Painting Tracks Personally, I spray the completed track runs (I'm one of the "weird" ones that builds the run in one hit and wraps the entire suspension in one go... makes it easier (for me at least) to achieve a good "sag") Tamiya XF-10 Flat brown. I then follow this up with drybrushing them with Tamiya XF-64 Red Brown, then with succeedingly lighter drybrushing with Testors Model Master "Leather" followed with their "Rust". Finally, I drybrush the faces (i.e. the parts of the track in contact with the ground and with the metal parts of the running gear, drive sprockets, road wheels, mud scrapers, pin wipers, etc) with Humbrol Metal Cote "Steel". The reason for all this work is because metal tracks tend to 1) wear off their primer coats (if they were even applied) very quickly and 2) Metal tracks rust quickly (from some German accounts during WWII even as quickly as overnight), and only the contacting faces were worn back to bare metal. Tracks with rubber blocks are obviously a different kettle of fish, and I tend to spray them with the base rubber colour (a dark grey, somewhere near a charcoal shade), with the contacting faces of them drybrushed black (check a car's tyres and you'll notice why), with the non-contacting parts of the metal links painted a fairly bright orange-y rust colour. Looks pretty good... even if I do say so myself. Hope this helps/is interesting :). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Listmaster Subject: Dragon Sdkfz 250 neu art My latest discovery on this kit, thanks to Angus Creighton who mentioned the fact in the latest Tamiya magazine, is that the 250/1 omits the gearbox, although the 250/8 includes it (parts Y1 and Y2). Dragon fails miserably either to mention these parts or what to do with them in either set of instructions and even tells you not to use the levers that fit onto them as they are shaded out in the parts layout! Fortunately I bought a 250/8 as well and it is only because I was hesitating over the cab because I figured there had to be something to link engine and gearbox that I have not yet fixed the cover on the hull floor. I had previously removed what I took to be an over-long pin from the gearbox cover part C19 as it would not line up with the hole in the hull floor but now it is clear that said pin goes all the way through the gearbox as well. At least it is not critical to assembly anyway. I hope this helps anyone else building one of these kits, with which I am otherwise rather impressed. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Cooper, Mike [Mike.Cooper@reading.gov.uk] Subject: Forthcoming SCW book Due to be published February 2000 We cannot park on both sides: Reading and the Spanish Civil War 1936-39 By Mike Cooper and Ray Parkes Reading International Brigades Memorial Committee A5, c.120 pages. Black and white photographs GBP9.95 including postage When the International Brigades Association published their book on International Brigades memorials, they used a photograph of Reading's striking memorial on the cover. The memorial commemorates the three men from Reading who died fighting in Spain - Josh Francis, Bill Ball and George Middleton. "We Cannot Park on Both Sides" tells their stories, but also those of the other Reading people who served in Spain. The book features first hand accounts of the fighting - including Jarama and Brunete, and life in the medical services, where a local Doctor, Reg Saxton did pioneering work in blood transfusion. If you would like to receive order details please contact Mike Cooper off-list - Mike.Cooper@reading.gov.uk Mike Cooper, EU Specialist Reading Reference Library Abbey Square Reading RG1 3BQ Tel: 0118 901 5955/56 Fax: 0118 9015954/5959 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Lockie (Think Tank Listmaster) Visit the Miniature AFV Association website at http://homepages.go.com/~mafva/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume