From: Think Tank Subject: Think Tank Vol. 0018 31/12/1999 Think.tank@tesco.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS' INDEX 1: Israeli Super Sherman + Dragon Wagon? 2: Thanks, British Army Camouflage, and an Answer 3: ZSU-23-4 kits 4: BATUS zap numbers 5: Staghound III 6: Diorama bases 7: British Challenger Engine Packs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: MIL-MOD is online!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1)From: Malcolm Ireson [ireson@carltons36.freeserve.co.uk] Subject: Israeli Super Sherman + Dragon Wagon? I would like to start off by saying happy Xmas, + New Year to all, now down to business. Usually, I only make German WWII stuff, but when Tamiya released their Dragon Wagon, I just had to have a go. To that end, I have built one towing a Panther, but I enjoyed making the D. Wagon so much I went and got another one!!! That's the history of this question, which is did the Israelis use the Dragon Wagon (as in Shep Paine's book) because I can't find any reference to them doing so. Has anyone out there got any information, reference, camouflage colours at all on Israeli Dragon Wagons? By the way, I know they are a little bit expensive, but they are a lovely model to make. All the best, Malcolm. My expert on Israeli matters, who has doubtless forgotten more about it then I will ever learn, tells me that the Israelis never had any M25s or M26s. Shep Paine's model in the old Kalmbach book is apparently wishful thinking (nice model though). Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2)From: Stuart [msb2@hotmail.com] Subject: Thanks, British Army Camouflage, and an Answer This is my first post to the Think Tank, although I have been a SMML for a little over a year now. First off, thanks to Mr. Lockie for taking the time and effort to start this forum and moderating it, I have already learned many things I did not know prior to the Think Tank. Speaking of, my question is as follows, can someone give my some guidance to camouflage for the British Army in WW II? I know what the various manufacturers put on their instructions is not always correct (surprise!). What I am looking for, if possible, is what colours and patterns where used when and where (I know, there are always exceptions to the rules). Is there a book or pamphlet available? Geoff Cooke asked about availability, I am at work and going off of my memory (I know, very dangerous), but Heller makes/made the Leclerc, AMX 30, AMX 13 (90mm and 105mm tank versions, twin 35mm anti-aircraft, 155mm SP howitzer, and a APC/ASV version), Dragon/DML does the ZSU 23-4 in a couple of versions. I do not recall an AMX 10. The Heller kits are the usual Heller, why use 2 parts when 7 can make it more complicated. The Dragon/DML ZSU 23-4, I do not know about, as I do not own one. Thanks and hope this helps, Stuart Batchelor Norman, Oklahoma, USA PS - If the SMML types are known as SMMLies, what are the Think Tank types? I have now sent you, off list, a copy of Mike Cooper's notes (based on research carried out by him and Mike Starmer) on British WW2 colours which will hopefully answer the questions on colours. Patterns are a bit more difficult (or easy, depending on how you look at it). The easiest way in my experience is to study photographs, as not many patterns seem to have had a rigid design to them. The geometric Caunter scheme used in the desert is an obvious exception, and Mike Starmer's articles in Tankette recently should be helpful there. AS to books, I can recommend Terry Wise's "D-Day to Berlin", now reprinted I think, as a good starter for the late war stuff. Unfortunately, most of my modelling (or lack of it) is for this period, so I have less on the earlier schemes. However, BT White's "British Tank Markings and Names" has a useful selection of photographs. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Listmaster Subject: ZSU-23-4 kits I acquired a kit of the 23-4M version of this by Italeri a couple of years ago (the one used by Iraq in the 1990-91 war) as the Dragon V1 version that I wanted was something like twice the price. It is pretty reasonable but there are some dimensional horrors and details that need correcting. Most of them were covered by Bruce Crosby in a couple of articles in Military Modelling a few years ago (May and June 1993). A few hours spent climbing, photographing and measuring is worth doing – I know of four 23-4Ms in the UK, at Duxford, Middle Wallop, Arborfield and RMCS Shrivenham. The latter is probably in the best condition, although Duxford's example now runs (pity they won't let us get the radar working on airshow days though ;). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: MALCOLM IRESON [ireson@carltons36.freeserve.co.uk] Subject: BATUS zap numbers To answer your question, yes, they are white numbers on black. All the best for Xmas + New Year. Talk again in New Year! Malcolm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Cooper, Mike [Mike.Cooper@reading.gov.uk] Subject: Staghound III Dear All Hmm..... If the beasties didn't get into service until post May 45, they offer an interesting poser. Very soon after the end of the War the Brits (and the Canadians) reverted to Khaki Green G3/Middle Bronze Green) from Standard Camouflage Colour 15 (Olive Drab). Now the questions must be: a. When did they revert? b. When were Staghound IIIs finished? c. When do you want to show your model as being after the War? Mike Starmer and I think the change happened pretty quickly, but not so soon that things like the first Cents and Tortoise were caught by it. Looking at some 1946 film of BARVs in action, I think full "bull" was certainly in place by then, and I think some Comets may have been prowling around in the green in 1945. So, maybe odds on G3, then? As to markings - well even by Korea there seems to have been little difference in the basic pattern of Brit Tac markings. Squadron sign on turret in appropriate colour/shape; unit and arm of service marks on hull. I'm not sure when the red/yellow RAC flash came in. The problem is, of course if you don't know which units had Staghound IIIs you can't know which badging to use. At a guess, I'd say anyone with Staghounds would have had them if they got to units, but did they ever get doled out as a heavy troop vehicle like AECs?? By way of contrast, a bulled up G3 Staghound III would make a nice contrast to a dusty mucky No.9 OC ordinary Staghound. Don't think this actually helps much, but it's all I can offer! Mike Cooper, EU Specialist Reading Reference Library Abbey Square Reading RG1 3BQ Tel: 0118 901 5955/56 Fax: 0118 9015954/5959 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: MALCOLM IRESON [ireson@carltons36.freeserve.co.uk] Subject: Diorama bases This is going out to those of you who like to put their models into diorama settings, or on wooden baseboards. Whilst shopping in the after Christmas rush, I had to go into local supermarket. As I was walking around the cheese counter, I spotted at sale price a selection of cheeses on an oval shaped wooden cheeseboard for £4.99 Being that I am a cheese addict, I picked one up and was surprised to find that the cheeseboard was solid wood of a decent size for one large 1/35th tank including groundwork, or at a push a small 1/35th tank and some figures in a scene. With this, I picked up three cheeseboard selections. On a more funny note, I also stopped off at the wine counter to pick up a bottle of wine with lead foil around the top. Is it only me or do other modellers also walk around thinking "that's nice, how could I use that for modelling?" I'm now off to eat wine, drink cheese and make dioramas. All the best, Malcolm. Hmm, sounds like you've been er "eating" a bit too much of that wine, Malcolm ;o) Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: PSmith6328@aol.com Subject: British Challenger Engine Packs Hello to all fellow MAFVA members Happy New Year to you all. I am at present collecting information on Challenger engine packs (any Mark) if anybody has any drawings, photos, dimensions, etc. that I could beg, borrow or st---, did I mention borrow. I want to scratch build an engine if I can in 1/35 scale. If anybody can help me. Does anybody have any ideas were to look for info on the web? Either e-mail me direct or if you prefer by snail mail at Phill Smith 26, Treborough, North Furzton, Milton Keynes, Bucks. MK4 1LR ENGLAND I will refund any postage incurred. Many thanks and a Happy New Year and Happy Millennium Modelling I have only ever encountered one person crazy enough to tackle the CV-12, and that was Tim Babb, who builds the seriously silly projects (Scammell Commander, Chieftain AVLB, M2 ferry etc – you get the idea) for Accurate Armour. It was a very impressive result but I think he was disinclined ever to do one again! He measured and photographed one that was in BAOR and then ‘just’ built it. He lives somewhere in the south west but although I haven't seen him for a few years, he is clearly still making things. He sometimes goes to Trucks and Tracks or Euromilitaire. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Wim Vink [wim-vink@mil-mod.nl] Subject: MIL-MOD is online!! Fellow modeler, Good news from Holland. After a delay now online: MIL-MOD www.mil-mod.nl The website especially for the Military Modeler of U.S. Army Military Equipment. Including U.S. Army Military Equipment usd by Allied Forces. This site, among other things, includes: * CONSTRUCTION ARTICLES * FEATURE ARTICLES * SHORT ARTICLES * HISTORICAL ARTICLES * PHOTO GALLERY: a) 1:1 PHOTOS b) TECHNICAL MANUAL PHOTOS c) OLD BOX-TOPS d) MODEL PHOTOS * LINKS Very soon 10 NEWSGROUPS also will be online. Some time later also: * Many new 1:1 photos, under which: a) Half Tracks b) M24 Chaffee Tank c) M26 Pershing Tank d) M40 155mm e) M41 Gorilla f) M41 Walker Bulldog Tank g) Honest John Rocket & Launcher * Many new Technical Manual Photos, under which: a) LVT 1+2 b) M1/2 Long Tom Gun + 8-inch Howitzer c) M1A1 Wrecker d) M4, 5 + 6 High Speed Tractors e) M8 + M20 f) M18 Hellcat g) M25 Dragon Wagon h) M37 105mm HMS i) M40 + M43 j) T16 Universal Carrier * More Kind regards and a Merry Christmas, Wim Vink Holland -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Lockie (Think Tank Listmaster) Visit the Miniature AFV Association website at http://homepages.go.com/~mafva/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume