From: Think Tank Subject: Think Tank Vol.0021 22/01/2000 Think.tank@tesco.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS' INDEX 1: Israeli organisation 1973 2: Re: Israeli Centurions 3: Char Canon 75BS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: MIL-MOD Newsgroups -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: mark hazzard [mark@hazzardm.freeserve.co.uk] Subject: Israeli organisation 1973 The vast majority of MBT on the Golan in 1973 were Shot-Kal (upgraded Cent) as the IDF preferred them due to the harsh (lava) nature of the ground, The Patton series of tank were used in the south where the sandy terrain better suited torsion bar suspension and rubber block track. It was also recognised that any attack would be unidirectional (i.e. from Syria straight at the defensive lines rather than mobile attacks in the desert due to the terrain and minefields) which the frontal armour on centurion was more likely to be resistant to than M48/M60. I've looked through my references and cannot find any m48/m60 vehicles up there at all even in the reserves (except maybe m48 AVLB). Certainly M51 Shermans were present in the reserve units which entered Syria late in the war and I would guess that's about it although in the "Israels Armor in Action" book there is a pic of an M50 Sherman purporting to be on the Golan as well; unfortunately you can't tell as the background is obscured. As for support vehicles, the following are definitely there: M109, M107, M50 howitzer Sherman, Soltam 160mm mortar, Centurion ARV, M113, CJ5 recce jeeps, ½ tracks. As for organisation the initial onslaught was faced by two regular brigades, 7 and 188 (Barak) and from then on anything that could reach the heights was thrown in. The Von Pivka book details the organisation well, the only change post 1973 is (I think) the attachment of the mechanised infantry integrally to the brigade. In 1967 and 1973 the IDF used a unique organisation known as the "ugda" or battle group in which units were attached as required to an overall commander such as Tal, Sharon, Elazar etc, this included artillery, engineer, recce and even air support; effectively the IDF operated a "pooling" arrangement with independent units being able to be called in to create a battle group as the situation dictated. In 1973 this all went to the wall with the requirement to get guns onto the plateau ASAP. Having travelled on the Golan several times it is very difficult to get vehicles there that aren't there anyway (or very close) as the Jordan river is only crossed at three points, one on the Sea of Galilee itself, one halfway up the plateau and another in the Dan and Banias area north of the "valley of tears". Certainly the Barak brigade under Laner and Peled was almost completely destroyed in the first few days and only ad hoc deployment of available reserve vehicles fought in the southern areas around Rafid until the 7th broke through around Kuneitra and threatened Damascus which relieved the pressure on the southern flanks. 7th only fought with Centurions in the Valley of Tears; by the way, the new Cromwell kit is accurate for one of those. If you wish to know more try to get the book "The Heights of Courage" by Avigdor Kahalani which is the personal account by CO 7th Brigade of the battle. Mark Hazzard -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Kelvin Mok [klmok@home.com] Subject: Re: Israeli Centurions I believe that the tank types on the Golan at that time were all Centurion (presumably upgraded with 105mm and diesel engine), ........ I have a 1/25 Tamiya Centurion with interior detail that I would like to convert to an Israeli Centurion. A current book "The World's Great Tanks from 1916 to the present day", Roger Ford, ISBN 1-897884-29-X has two drawings that look really attractive (pp 114-115, 116). I have drawings from elsewhere that will let me do the exterior modifications - mainly the rear extension and the raised engine deck. However, is there anyone who has drawings or photos of: 1. Breech details of the 105 mm L7 main gun; 2. 750 hp Continental diesel and its installation configuration; 3. The rear panel of the tank with its associated equipment; 4. Any other interior or exterior modifications that I should look for? The drawings from the above mentioned book also include what appears to be flat rectangular spaced (armour) panels welded to the exposed surfaces of the turret and the front of the hull. Are those what they are? Kelvin Mok (klmok@home.com) Home: (780) 463-4099 | Home FAX: (780) 430-7120 Those panels sound rather like Blazer ERA boxes to me – the first time I saw them fitted was in 1982, although the mountings appear to have been installed by at least 1978 on some vehicles. The big difficulty with the Shot is that as it has been in service so long, none is currently in its original configuration and it is necessary to know exactly what mods were applicable for the date you are building. Having never seen one of the perishing things in the flesh, I can't help with the last three of your queries, but we do have an M60A1 (US M68 105mm) and a late Cent (British L7 105mm) at Duxford, on which I could probably photograph and measure key dimensions of the gun. I am given to understand by one who has measured them that most (all?) of the published plans of Shot Kal engine decks are in error but I have not verified this. Sounds like an ambitious project though - good luck! Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Listmaster Subject: Char Canon 75BS Received this from a non-subscriber - can anyone help? Thought that I'd use my new computer to ask if you have any information on a modelling project. I thought that I'd finish my half-built Renault FT as a 'Char Canon 75BS'. This was a version of the FT that mounted a short 75mm howitzer in a fixed turret. It was used by the Vichy French against Commonwealth forces in Syria (1941) and in Morocco during Operation Torch. Please post replies to the list. Thanks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Wim Vink [wim-vink@mil-mod.nl] Subject: MIL-MOD Newsgroups Hello modelers, Since a few hours online: 10 MIL-MOD Newsgroups. You can read all postings within every group. You have to sign-up ONCE to post your own or to reply. Hope to "see" you on the newsgroups! Kind regards, Wim Vink -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Lockie (Think Tank Listmaster) Visit the Miniature AFV Association website at http://homepages.go.com/~mafva/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume