From: Think Tank Subject: Think Tank Vol. 0059 13/01/2001 Think.tank@tesco.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS' INDEX 1: Re: Marine Armor - Book 2: USMC M47s 3: Vehicles in Burma 4: ACVs and QLRs 5: Queries 6: Revell M113 kit 7: Esci Leopard II comments wanted -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Free mags offer from past member -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Maze [jmaze@neo.rr.com] Subject: Re: Marine Armor - Book USMC had M47s? I heard that they train with them in the Desert and keep the new kit for the real thing (over to Mark Hazzard here, twas thee that told me was it not). John Precisely my reaction, John, I have been gathering USMC books for many years, and have never seen a reference to their using M47s - M26, M46, M60, but not M47s. ANYONE??? If it was an old book that had been published while procurement decisions were still being made (like one book on airpower which had the Marines taking A-7s and F-14s), I could understand - but it's a new book! JohnM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: mark hazzard [mark@hazzardm.freeserve.co.uk] Subject: USMC M47s Ref. John B's query about USMC M47 usage, the reference pics are on page 68 ,& 71 of Hunnicutt's Patton book. HTH MJH -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: nickbalmer [nickbalmer@ukonline.co.uk] Subject: Vehicles in Burma At a local modelling event I was kindly given a copy of a photo of a tank leaguer in Burma. Getting it home has revealed a mass of interesting points. At the recent Cambridge MAFVA meeting Bob and I realised that the photo was a treasure trove of unusual vehicles. The photo shows in the background four Grant tanks, modified with the cupola removed from the turrets. No unit markings visible however. I know the 150th Regiment R.A.C used this type of tank in Burma, after being converted from the York and Lancashire Regiment. Does anybody know which division they formed part of? I think they were in 255 Tank Brigade at Meitila in February and early March 1945. The Royal Deccan Horse was also in 255 Brigade did they also have Grants? Other Grant units included the 25th Dragoons in the Arakan, and the Carabiniers, does anybody know of any other users of Grants in Burma? Next to the Grants is a Sherman with a three-piece cast nose. A late pattern M34A1 mantlet which appears to be an OP tank. It definitely has an aerial mounted over the co-driver’s side of the hull, and no machine gun in the hull station. The co-driver’s sponson has RF on it which is the OP tank for F troop. The driver's sponson appears to have 25. Does anybody have the tactical codes for SEAC tank units? I speculate that this tank might be an OP tank for one of the Priest-equipped units in Burma. I have photos of 59 Field Battery Priests in Burma but the codes are concealed. Does anybody know what their codes were or of any photos of Priests in Burma? The Sherman appears to have several unusual features including a cowl mounted over the turret top periscope next to the sighting vane. There is a cable passing around the right hand side of the turret which appears to be clipped to the turret; it disappears down the rear of the turret in the direction of the deck. The end of the cable at the mantlet appears to be linked to a crank, before turning through 90 degrees and runs ether into or along the top of the mantlet. The fact that it turns or bends through two acute angles in about 6 inches of length dissuades me from thinking that it is a camouflage tie down or baggage anchor. Any ideas? Did the Tabby night sight see service in Burma? On the road are three headquarters Jeeps. One has a 40 tac code which normally stands for a divisional headquarters in Europe and the Middle East. Two have has the rear Jerricans removed a replaced with sheet metal brackets. These hold what appear to be three flimsy sized cans. Close inspect shows that unlike flimsies they have no handle or screw top cap. Instead then have flat oval sheet metal covers. Could these be battery boxes? What did a number 19 set battery look like? One Jeep has the rear seat taken out and fitted in the front passenger position (yes, it fits, I tried it on a Tamiya kit!). The front passenger seat is set in the back behind the driver's seat. At the rear outboard of the spare wheel has been fixed an aerial base like those fixed on 1940 British light tanks and cruisers, with the large spring and balancing frame. The actual radio is missing. Has anybody come across these conversions elsewhere? Here endeth this week's puzzle. Regards Nick Balmer I have had a trawl through my references and Joslyn (Orders of Battle, Second World War 1939-45) has proved useful. 150RAC was indeed originally 10Y&L when it embarked for India on 02/08/41, converting on 22/11/41. It was initially under command of 50ITB, then 19 Div, 2Div and then 50ITB again. On 04/11/44 it moved to the Imphal area under 254ITB and then operated in Burma, apparently still under 254ITB until 15/06/45, when it left Burma for Madras. It was present at Mutaik (01/01/45), Ngazu (31/03/45), Taungdwingyi (30/04/45) and Shwedaung 31/05/45). 254 was an Indian brigade (hence the "I") formed in 04/42 and (according to Bellis (British Tanks and Formations 1939-45) comprising only 25D (formed from cadres of the Carabineers) until 12/43, when it was joined by 3DG (Carabineers). 149RAC was added in 07/44, followed by 150RAC in 10/44. I49RAC was originally 7KOYLI. 254ITB was equipped with Lees, Grants and Stuarts throughout, only 255ITB (of which the only British component was 116RAC - formerly the Gordon Highlanders - once it arrived in Burma) having Shermans. An article by Peter Brown in AFV News 35/3 (and Sandars's The Sherman Tank in British Service 1942-45) reveals that 255ITB also included Probyn's Horse, Royal Deccan Horse and Prince Albert Victor's Own, also all Sherman users. There are some apparently standard mods carried out to their tanks but none looks like the cowl over the gunner's sight. My suspicion is that it is purely to reduce glare from the sun when observing, which would be important for an OP vehicle, and multi-coated lenses (which is why modern optics look purple, like camera lenses) were far in the future then. It occurs to me that the cable round he turret could be to give escorting infantry something to hang on to, as in close country, an escort to keep off the Japanese infantry would be useful. The Sherman is probably an M4A4 as that was, as far as I know, the only version we used in Burma. I believe that all these brigades were independent of a division, given that Joslyn makes no mention of being subordinate. In addition, they have their own formation signs, which subordinate brigades rarely do. The following information on markings is taken from Wise (WW2 Military Vehicle Markings and Military Vehicle Markings part 2). 254ITB's formation sign was an inverted red equilateral triangle in solid red with three vertical spots below it and a geometric design in the triangle whose colour is not stated. 255ITB used a solid blue flatter isosceles triangle with a black (?) charging bull with red eyes, hooves and horns. AoS numbers and colours apparently followed the British system in the main, apparently based on the middle east ones. A look at Hodges and Taylor (British Military markings) indicates "40" to be "AL section" when applied to corps troops, which I think stands for air liaison. This might explain the strange radio fit. "25" is for the Air OP squadron, which seems an unlikely unit to have Shermans. That is about my limit - over to the rest of you for the real story! Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Daniel Taylor [d-taylor@dircon.co.uk] Subject: ACVs and QLRs Hi All You know how making a model is apt to set you off on various tangents? I have recently popped open one of the old Airfix refuelling kits and am ruminating on the subject of building a QLR with the Bedford (thank you to everyone who has contributed information on this) and an ACV. Incidentally, I know that the six-wheel Matador is wrong for the ACV but it's quite easy to adapt and I only have one 4-wheel Matador left whereas I've got seven refuelling kits. So, where was I? Oh yes. Anyway, I wonder if any of you out there know about the distribution of QLRs and ACVs in NW Europe, 1944. I know that there were 3 ACVs to an armoured div, but am I correct in assuming that the div commander got one and each of the brigade commanders got one? I'd also assume that the former was a high power unit whilst the latter two were Low Power - any contradictory evidence? Now I believe that QLRs were issued to HQs that did not require armour. Would this be on the same scale? Very interested to hear your thoughts. Dan Taylor Thanks to Peter Brown, I have the wheeled AFV allocations for 21AG and no ACVs appear before the six-monthly return for 31/12/44. The allocations (LP and HP not specified separately) were then as follows: 7 AD 17 11 AD 19 Guards AD 18 79AD 3 33 AB 2 34 TB 2 4 Cdn AD 19 2 Cdn AB 2 1 Polish AD 19 Czech AB 4 By 30/06/45, the units now had: ACV HP ACV LP TOTAL 8 Corps 1 1 2 30 Corps 1 - 1 7 AD 3 12 15 11 AD 6 12 18 Guards AD 7 12 19 79AD 3 - 3 4 AB 1 2 3 8 AB 2 - 2 34 TB - 2 2 15 Inf Div - 1 1 43 Inf Div 1 - 1 51 Inf Div - 1 1 53 Inf Div - 1 1 4 Cdn AD 2 10 12 5 Cdn AD 3 13 16 1 Polish AD 6 12 18 Evidently, ACVs were not restricted three in the division. The LP/HP allocation seems to be more complicated, as well as being inconsistent. And bear in mind that the war in Europe was over by 30/06/45 so combat losses were not happening by then. I would expect that the ACVs would be in the Signals element at Div HQ and used for comms with Corps, with HP just having longer range, as well as for offices for staff. I have singularly little on the QLR allloacations unfortunately – I think I sent you everything I had on that subject. Don't forget to put all those rivets on the ACV (the doctors say I can be released back into the community soon.;-) On a related issue, has anyone seen evidence of the issue of AEC 6x6 ACVs before the end of the war in Europe? Who got them, how many, where etc.? I have delved for a while and found very little. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Grant Parkin [granty_p@hotmail.com] Subject: Queries Dear Robert & co, firstly Happy New Millennium to you all, & secondly, please put your thinking caps on as here comes a list of queries I'd like some help with, if possible. 1. When did Army & Navy Modelworld magazine start, & did it have any good 1/76-1/72 conversion/s-build articles in it which are worth looking out for? (I've got the last issue Apr88). 2. Can anyone confirm that Bellona did a book about Imperial Japanese Tanks? I've seen it advertised in an old copy of Mil Mod, but haven't heard or seen of it myself. 3. Does anyone have a copy of the old Airfix title Classic AFV No.1 Crusader for sale? I can swop a spare No.2 Lee/Grant if need be. 4.Can anyone point me in the direction of good conversion/s-build articles for Japanese tanks in 1/76? Apart from the Airfix and Fujimi Chi-Hi/SPG offerings, models of these machines are none existent in plastic. (I won't pay resin/white metal prices as I'm on a limited modelling budget) 5. Is there a website dealing with Italian WWII tanks and softskins? This is another area thin on the ground outside of Italy itself, and as I don't speak Italian, translating of Italian books (if you can find them) is very hard! Also any conversion/s-build articles about Italian tanks would also be helpful. Many thanks in advance for any assistance you can give. Grant -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Jon Barker [jon_barkerm113@hotmail.com] Subject: Revell M113 kit Has anyone seen inside the Revell M113 kit yet? Is it a new production or just the Italeri one re-boxed? Any help would be appreciated, living in Orkney I have to get most of my kits by mail order so do not get to see before buying. All the best for 2001. Thanks Jon Barker. jon_barkerm113@hotmail.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Listmaster Subject: Esci Leopard II comments wanted I recently acquired one of these from my colleagues as a token of their relief at seeing me leave after ten years but know next to nothing about either the real thing or the Esci example of it. I did have a climb and photo session a few years ago at Castlemartin (courtesy of Paul Gandy and the S Wales MAFIA) but had never really contemplatyed buying one. The question is, what is Esci's kit like in terms of accuracy, shape, dimensions, fit, details etc.? I have seen a grown man struggle with their truly execrable T-72 some years ago but I hear that more recent efforts such as the M60A1 have been better. Anyone tacked one before? Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: MAFVAHQ@aol.com Subject: Free mags offer from past member Hi Folks, Perhaps someone may wish to avail themselves of this kind offer from a past member. Please give it a mention. Cheers, Gary A hasty inventory of the magazines FREE to a good home: Airfix Magazine: Oct, Nov 63, Feb 64, Feb 65, Apr 65 to May 74, Jul to Dec 74, Feb 75. Military Modelling: Mar 71 to Jan 72, Jul to Nov 72, May 73, Oct 73 to Feb 74, Apr to Oct 74, Feb, May, Jun 75. Meccano Magazine: May 61, Apr, Nov 62, Jan 63 to Sep 64, Dec 64, Mar, Apr, Jul 65, Sep 65 to Jan 66, Mar, Apr 66, Jun to Aug 66, Nov 66, Feb to May 67, Apr 68. Contact Andy Dunn tel 023 9237 2216 email andy@dunns.demon.co.uk 25 St Johns Rd Cosham Portsmouth Hampshire PO6 2DR -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Lockie (Think Tank Listmaster) Visit the Miniature AFV Association website at http://homepages.go.com/~mafva/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume