From: Think Tank Subject: Think Tank Vol. 0064 18/02/2001 Think.tank@tesco.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS' INDEX 1: Beatties sale prices 2: Re: Dioramas & models 3: WW1 tanks 4: Japanese army colours 5: WW1 tanks 6: Tank tracks so slack............. 7: British flamethrowers 8: Re: Dioramas vs display models 9: St. Chamond (1/76) in 11/2 10: Jap tank colours 11: WW1 tank drawings 12: Saracen colour schemes 13: Panther idlers sought -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Tankette indices to Vol.36 No.1 2: Next week’s digest -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Harris [john@ukmilmod.force9.co.uk] Subject: Beatties sale prices Hello to one and all, The "30% off" Beatties sale has passed, but my local Beatties (Romford, Essex) still has some Tamiya reductions, all 1/35th, JGSDF motorcycle reconnaissance set - £3.99, German motorcycle orderly set - £3.99, German Soldiers with bicycles - £3.99, JGSDF Type 90 (with crew reloading) - £18.99 (this is half price), Leopard 2A5 - £18.99. Incidentally, according to the IPMS site, quoting an "official" press release, reckons this store has closed! Cheers John Harris john@ukmilmod.force9.co.uk UK Military Modelling http://www.ukmilmod.force9.co.uk Maybe the staff are indulging in a little free enterprise ;-).. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Nowfel Leulliot [n.leulliot@free.fr] Subject: Re: Dioramas & models That discussion about shells has got me wondering : maybe the culprits saw too many pictures of WW1 artillery pieces with half their _two-part_ ammo neatly aligned on their base. Nowfel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Richard Marks [richard@marks28.freeserve.co.uk] Subject: WW1 tanks The subject of First War tanks. Mike Cooper and I have spent a lot of time researching the beasts. If I remember rightly the sponsons on the Bellona IV drawings are wrong (I'm sure Mike will correct me on this !!). Mark I drawings can be had from J.B. Church. via the drawings of Mother, which is essentially a Mark I (see Mike Cooper's articles on the subject for more information about what is the difference. I have various Tankette drawings about, but I don't remember seeing a II. I have 1:76th plate drawings for the Mark II female sponson, from measurements taken by myself and Mike of the female II at Bovington and I will gladly send them on to anyone who wants them. Richard There were also plans of Mother in Tankette 13/5 and 15/1. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: john.baumann@talk21.com Subject: Japanese army colours I understand Mike Cooper is putting some words together on colours in general, for all WWII participating nations. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: john.baumann@talk21.com Subject: WW1 tanks Hi Wayne, I probably have more plans than you can shake a stick at and would gladly try to help providing (a) you become a MAFVA member [in return you get 6 issues of "Tankette" per annum plus access to my files], (b) reimburse my expenses [mainly postage, send at least 4 x International Reply Coupons] and (c) send me a listing [no more than say 20 at once]. John Baumann (MAFVA Information Officer) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John Harris [john@ukmilmod.force9.co.uk] Subject: Tank tracks so slack............. While I agree in principle, I recall a T-54/55 under Muhajadeen ownership in Afghanistan shown on BBC News with tracks so slack that they whipped each time the driver changed gear. A later shot showed another tank going round the corner and doing the tracked equivalent of a 'four wheel drift'!. So, while the supposition is probably right, rules are made to be broken Cheers John Harris john@ukmilmod.force9.co.uk UK Military Modelling http://www.ukmilmod.force9.co.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Karl Grubb [karlgrubb@blueyonder.co.uk] Subject: British flamethrowers Re British Flame-throwers. I don't think the weight of the fuel would be 18.61 litres as, as we all know, 1 litre (of water)weighs 1 kilo , thus making the unit itself 3.something kilos, which seems very light for a flame thrower, perhaps 18.61 pounds or pints??, but then why is the weight of the thrower in metric not imperial units??? hmmm the plot thickens, time for some burning of the midnight oil methinks. cheers Karl Some kind soul (no accompanying note and illegible postmark so they are currently anonymous) sent me a copy of a document on the Ackpack flamethrower and it states that the weight is 17½ pounds empty and 48 pounds filled. My "O" Level maths tells me that the fuel must weigh 30½ pounds (described later in the document as four gallons (i.e. 32 pints)). It is filled to 2,000psi pressure. Maximum effective range is given as 40yds, reduced by winds and duration is about ten one-second shots. There were two types of fuel, of which heavy No.1 was for tropical climates and light No.2 for temperate. Anyway, thanks to whichever one of the people to whom I enquired about it responded. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Chris Hughes [Cjm.Hughes@btinternet.com] Subject: Re: Dioramas vs display models I am very pleased to see that the original post has now generated some thoughtful response! I think it's fair to say that the great majority seem to concur with the observations on clutter and lack of realism. To respond to Bradford Chaucer's comments re ships on sticks etc, as Robert said, a ship model depicting the original in a pristine condition and mounted on brass plinths is a method of displaying which goes back to ship modelling in the days of the three-masted Ships of the Line of Nelson. However, a ship "diorama" depicting a vessel under way in rough sea, with crew figures on deck also has its place - it's telling a story. There's nothing wrong in building a model of, say, an M1 Abrams, painting it and decalling it "a la factory finish" and mounting it on a polished wooden plinth. "Here's a trophy model of my first tank". However, if a modeller chooses to portray the tank in a "diorama" setting, then that setting should attempt to tell a realistic and believable story. It is possible to be subtle without overdoing things. Yes, depict a "replen" scenario with uncased ammo - but lay the rounds out on their sides where they won't roll off the engine deck and "cook off". Depict a "field refuelling", have a stack of empty fuel cans tossed in a heap, but don't have the crew cooking a meal over a roaring fire close by! If a modeller wants to open everything and show the innards of the tank, then model an "in barracks" workshop scene, where every hatch and deckplate can justifiably be opened or unbolted and stacked neatly. When the crew puts it all back together again, it's a heck of a lot easier if it's all been kept relatively clean and tidy - I know, I've done it for real - both in barracks and at a field workshops deep in a German forest. Why not depict a "Complete Equipment Schedule" muster? We used to do this to while away the odd afternoon! Lay a tarpaulin in front of the vehicle and have every periscope, contents of the toolbox, track-bashing kit, towropes, water cans, cooker and even items of personal gear laid out for serial number checks and counting! Then yes, you can have disassembled equipment neatly displayed! The crew figures can be reaching for the item being called out or standing rigidly to attention as the Sgt Major chews them a new orifice for losing the 1/2" socket spanner! Read books, look at films and photos and - if you can - talk to someone who's been and done it; explain why and you should get a helpful answer... Try me! Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: MAFVAHQ@aol.com Subject: St. Chamond (1/76) in 11/2 Dear All, Further to the entry in Think Tank Vol. 0063 13/02/2001. I am sorry to say that Tankette Vol 11/1 has now sold out . However, I am pleased to announce that we do still have some issues of Tankette, Vol 11/2 with the St. Chamond (1/76) plans. These are available from me at normal back issue prices. Kind regards Gary Gary Williams (Pres/Sec MAFVA) Phone: +44 (0) 1477 535 373 Fax: +44 (0) 1477 535 892 Mobile: +44 (0) 7989 871 393 E-mail: MAFVA HQ@aol.com MAFVA Weekly Forum: think.tank@tesco.net HTTP://homepages.go.com/~mafva/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Mike Cooper [coopmik1@hotmail.com] Subject: Jap tank colours Dear All Oddly enough I had a similar conversation with Mike Starmer to the one Rob had. I've got notes at home, but meanwhile... Jap trucks and artillery encountered in Burma in '45 by a mate of Mike's was a brown shade - a warm golden tan, a little lighter than Humbrol 29, and more golden. I've got BS refs at home if anyone wants them. According to the Jap A/C buffs this was known as "helmet brown" and also appears on some aircraft. Mike S is also working on a theory that other A/C and armour colours may have been common to both. Meanwhile, below is all I know about Jap tank - as opposed to MT - colours. From a forthcoming IPMS piece by me. Mike Cooper Sunny Reading UK Japanese Armour Colours 1939-45 Colours - see below. No specific standard cited in sources, but colours seem to have been prescribed from some official source. Patterns – laid down in Japanese Army Camouflage Regulations 1942 (given in Panzer Jan 1976) Applied by: Uncertain, but at least at first a relatively high degree of standardisation appears suggesting factory or higher unit. Documentation - see patterns References: Steve Zaloga, Japanese tank markings, Airfix magazine March 1977 pp.394-400 and Saipan Chi-ha Military Modelling August 1999; (I think something may be missing from the above line. Robert) Tank Battles of the Pacific War 1941-1945 Concord, 1995 (Armor at War 7004). Zaloga's earlier Armour of the Pacific War, Osprey, 1983 (Vanguard 35) gives an interpretation of Japanese colours not supported by his later findings. The plates are still useful for patterns and markings, however. Notes: Steve Zaloga has done all of the work available to me in secondary sources. There do seem to be some uncertainties in interpretation, but the picture below seems generally accurate Home Islands, China, and generally 1935-45 Base tone is "Khaki" – a medium-dark yellow green, fading medium. According to Steve Zaloga in Military Modelling August 1999 actual examples show this to be rich yellow green rather than an olive – and as such it might be thought of, and perhaps mixed, in the same way as the British Khaki Green G3. However elsewhere he refers to it as an olive green. Camouflage tones are "Parched Grass" and "Dark Brown" with a strong yellow used over these 0early in the War but proscribed in 1942. The most recent interpretation of Parched Grass is as a dull sand, fading grey. Dark Brown was clearly the darkest of the colours used, a rich dark drown fading to a red brown. Photographic evidence suggests that the main tonal contrast was between the "parched grass" and the other two colours, but its worth noting that this colour seems to have been a noticeably dark sand - perhaps near Humbrol 84 rather than say straight 94. On the basis of the secondary evidence, the plates in Zaloga’s Tank battles of the Pacific War probably give a good impression of the colours involved. 1942 regulations required hard edged "cloud" shapes in Parched Grass and Dark Brown covering about 30 and 20% of the vehicle respectively. The patches seem in general to be vertically orientated, and sometimes seem more like wobbly edged stripes. Zaloga notes that later in the war the base Khaki could be used on its own or with one colour or that Parched Grass could appear with either of the other two. One fleeting colour shot of a Japanese truck in a US film suggested to me overall Parched Grass. Japanese aircraft researchers have noted a colour called "Helmet Brown" as being used on helmets trucks and other equipment. On the basis of the above, if it found its way onto tanks it can only have done so as the brown tone. This colour is suggested as matching c. fs 30118, 20112 down to 30277 on aircraft, giving a range roughly equivalent to British SCC.2. I simply haven’t the evidence from anything other than tanks to explore this, but I do note from aircraft research that Japanese colours whilst standardised as to intention were subject to a wide range of variation in practice. The aircraft research is at www.j-aircraft.com . Look in the FAQs on the discussion lists. My limited range of photos of Jap softskins doesn't confirm/refute this [BUT see above - I've found out more since I wrote this] SW Pacific 1942-45 Base tone is "Willow Green", described as a rich bluish green specified. Used with Parched Grass and Dark Brown. Undersurfaces up to the track guards were to be Parched Grass, but apparently a very dark green was used instead in some instances, and in other camouflage patterning was carried into the lower areas, hiding the Patched Grass Navy Amphibious tanks were an overall dark blue grey. Much work has been done on Imperial Japanese colours, and a good set of well researched colour chips is available from Snyder and Short Enterprises, via White Ensign Models. In general terms a grey in the range of Humbrol 112 or 79 fits best. Interiors – Probably white, on the basis of photographic evidence [again I've found out a bit more - use of red-brown primer for example] Copyright: Mike Cooper 2001 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Mike Cooper [coopmik1@hotmail.com] Subject: WW1 tank drawings Dear All Sorry, but I bet you just knew I'd reply to this MK1 to Mk IV/V - best bet is the Tank Museum's own pack of drawings - many are much too detailed. Bibliographic references to the published WW1 tank drawings are in my IPMS magazine articles in (I think 6/97 and 1-2/98). I can copy and send to anyone who wishes to suffer. Schneider - nice clear drawings from Mick Bell too St Chamond - the only set in Tankette are inaccurate about the nose, and may be iffy elsewhere. I know of no 100% accurate ones in any of my sources... but... A7V - best lot are the 1/24 (I think) drawings in the Queensland book on Mephisto. I can dig the reference out if anyone would like it. FT17 - Good ones in Tankette - Bellona did a nice set, and I can copy if needed Mike Cooper Reading - still sunny 5mins after my last mail! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: alan fanning [alan@afanning.fsnet.co.uk] Subject: Saracen colour schemes I'm no expert on Saracens but in reply to Bill Scriven's question last week, I thought I would pass on a some observations I came across while researching Land Rovers. In Aden , I've seen one photo of a Saracen of the Queens Own Hussars which is painted in an Overall Green and also photo's of Saracens supporting the Argyll's, I think it is probably A Squadron Queens Dragoon Guards; these are painted black & sand. An Ex-Argyll told me they were sand not light stone and in the photo's I have (Land Rovers), the black is extremely well faded. As for Suez, there is a photo of one belonging to 6RTR which is waiting to board an LST bound for Suez. This appears to be in an overall sand scheme. I didn't find any pictures of any in Cyprus , but the Saladins that were there appear to have the black & sand scheme, but maybe they varied unit to unit as in Aden. I don't know if this is any help; hopefully someone else will have all the gen. Regards Al. Spike Judd, who did some time in QOH himself, tells me that the Saracens with RFC were present in all the hot climate areas, and Cyprus was specifically mentioned. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Listmaster Subject: Panther idlers sought Improbable as it may seem, I have actually been doing some modelling and have dug out one of my Tamiya Panthers for a possible build. Having spent the evening making the tracks (a set of Anvil examples that I acquired last year, and which I recommend highly), the idler turns out to be the late self-cleaning type (double ribs) which was not in production at the time of the vehicle I am building. Does anyone have an old Italeri ausf A, which has the early type, from which they might be prepared to swop or donate a set of idlers? Thanks. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Robert Lockie [rlockie@platosoftware.com] Subject: Tankette indices to Vol.36 No.1 The latest update has just gone out, so those on the recipients list should have it by now. The indices are now done as both MS Excel 5 and Lotus 123 format and incorporate a series of filters to make it easier to run to ground a particular article or drawing. This time, I decided to send both to everybody so as to avoid having to remember which was which. However, several people's ISPs seem to dislike the fact that the Lotus file is an executable (.exe extension) as it is a self-extracting zip file. For some reason the Excel version (which is also a self-extracting zip with an .exe extension) seems to be delivered without any problem. Consequently I will send only the Excel version to those whose ISPs bounced it and those should go out later today. I could send it as just a (non-self-extracting) zip, but you would need a copy of Winzip32 to open it - this program is a free download from the web and is pretty useful for all sorts of things so I can recommend getting hold of a copy. Anyway, next set will be back to the old system of you get either Excel or Lotus 123 as a self-extracting, unless those of you who registered for a Lotus version have Winzip32, in which case I will send it as a zip. I would offer to send a copy of the Winzip32 program but as it is an executable itself, it probably won’t get through either! If you would like to be added to the list, please email to rlockie@platosoftware.com and request to be included. This is a free service (for God's sake, what more could you ask?) as it costs me the same to send a set to one person as to a hundred. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Listmaster Subject: Next week’s digest I am away next weekend and then have a meeting in Bristol on Monday, so the next digest will probably go out on Tuesday 27th February. Robert -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Lockie (Think Tank Listmaster) Visit the Miniature AFV Association website at http://homepages.go.com/~mafva/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume